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Oct 1, 2012
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the big issue, big change began in 198 1980 that goes with the election of ronald reagan ronald reagan brought with them to washington a very underrated figure in a recent american history, somehow i don't think gets his due as an important person. that's edwin meese because edwin meese at first was in flash and then attorney general. said look, there has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court. there needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was that agenda? expand executive power and end racial preferences, speed up execution, welcome religion into the public sphere, and above all, reverse roe v. wade and allow states once again to ban abortion. a big part of the reagan revolution was the arrival of washington of a group of young and committed conservative lawyers who wanted to work in that, on behalf of that agenda, who were two of the best and the brightest of that group? john roberts and samuel alito. 1970 -- in 1985, a memo at the solicitor general's office, alito wrote what can be made of this opportunity to advance the goal of bringing about the eventual o
the big issue, big change began in 198 1980 that goes with the election of ronald reagan ronald reagan brought with them to washington a very underrated figure in a recent american history, somehow i don't think gets his due as an important person. that's edwin meese because edwin meese at first was in flash and then attorney general. said look, there has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court. there needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was that agenda? expand...
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Sep 30, 2012
09/12
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think about ronald reagan. jimmy carter had a lot of great lines in his debate with ronald reagan in the 1980 debate, but ronald reagan kept saying there you go again. in 1984 walter mondale was beating ronald reagan. but reagan said i'm not going to let age be a determining factor, because my opponent is younger than me and less experienced than me. he used humor and well-timed phrases make a big difference in these debates. >> chris, joe raises an interesting point, the same point that matthew dowd raised in a national journal piece. in preparing for the debates, romney and president obama needs to remember that judgments on winning or losing are much more stylistic than substantive. the public isn't interested in getting more detail-specific policy, but in getting pointers about people on stage. when debates have moved in the numbers in the past, it's been result the impressions, mannerisms, style. is it going to be all about style trumping substance? >> he's partly right. he debates especially when you see
think about ronald reagan. jimmy carter had a lot of great lines in his debate with ronald reagan in the 1980 debate, but ronald reagan kept saying there you go again. in 1984 walter mondale was beating ronald reagan. but reagan said i'm not going to let age be a determining factor, because my opponent is younger than me and less experienced than me. he used humor and well-timed phrases make a big difference in these debates. >> chris, joe raises an interesting point, the same point that...
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Oct 5, 2012
10/12
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the incumbent was ronald reagan and got his clock cleaned by mondale. trying to win the first debates against their challengers was 0-3. the next time an incumbent president is facing a challenger is 1992. the incumbent president is george h.w. bush. his major party challenger is a young man from arkansas. there's also this other guy with the big ears and it's the other guy with the big ears who wins the first debate. >> the day after, victory for perot. clinton hold his own. trouble for the president. there's no one scorecard for determining who won and who lost last night, but a consensus does seem to be emerging. ross perot, the star of the night because no one knew what to expect. bill clinton just good enough. and president bush, he'll have to do much better. >> by morning, what had been last night's analysis had become conventional wiwisdom. in the headlines. on the "today" show. >> clinton did what he had to do and bush did not. >> and in instant polls. >> those polls show the president finishing third among people who watched the first debate. >
the incumbent was ronald reagan and got his clock cleaned by mondale. trying to win the first debates against their challengers was 0-3. the next time an incumbent president is facing a challenger is 1992. the incumbent president is george h.w. bush. his major party challenger is a young man from arkansas. there's also this other guy with the big ears and it's the other guy with the big ears who wins the first debate. >> the day after, victory for perot. clinton hold his own. trouble for...
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Sep 30, 2012
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that is what happened to ronald reagan in 1984 debate with walter mondale. it overran the persona of ronald reagan. next debate he was much more relaxed. roger ails did a great job preparing him and did much better job. same thing with governor romney. he has to know how to answer the questions but he has to be relaxed and rely on himself. one of the things i tell candidates it's very important that they have the good political judgment to make decisions and think on their feet rather than rely on script. >> give me one thing that you think we ought to look for out of mitt romney and one thing out of obama in this debate coming up on wednesday. >>> i think one of the -- apart from the economy, i do think one thing we should be looking for is to see if the president is willing to talk about his record on the economy and defend it. the american people ought to be making a judgment whether or not the president can defend that record. he ought to be looking for governor romney how well he press the case against the president. it's been his failure to lead on the
that is what happened to ronald reagan in 1984 debate with walter mondale. it overran the persona of ronald reagan. next debate he was much more relaxed. roger ails did a great job preparing him and did much better job. same thing with governor romney. he has to know how to answer the questions but he has to be relaxed and rely on himself. one of the things i tell candidates it's very important that they have the good political judgment to make decisions and think on their feet rather than rely...
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Sep 30, 2012
09/12
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ronald reagan won because the country was in bad shape. he offered policies to get us out of that and they worked. you compare the recovery under obama, this year the economy's improved 1.6%. last year, 1.8%. the year before, 2.4%. that's the best he's done. after the recession, when reagan was president, the first year 4.5% economic growth. the second year, 7.5% economic growth. the idea that we can't have a growing economy is something that is something that's not being talked about enough, anywhere except for the dining room table. >> the interesting thing about the race the national equilibrium is about two-point race. and if mitt romney has a good four or five days, this race will dwindled down to a two-point race. at that point in time, that's when the environmental factors, all begin to take place in this. but the biggest change that has happened in this, mitt romney wanted this to be a referendum election. the problem is it became a referendum, not on barack obama it became a referendum on him. at some point, he has to fix that rea
ronald reagan won because the country was in bad shape. he offered policies to get us out of that and they worked. you compare the recovery under obama, this year the economy's improved 1.6%. last year, 1.8%. the year before, 2.4%. that's the best he's done. after the recession, when reagan was president, the first year 4.5% economic growth. the second year, 7.5% economic growth. the idea that we can't have a growing economy is something that is something that's not being talked about enough,...
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Sep 30, 2012
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>> ronald reagan. >> you got it. >> ronald reagan, 1980. >> '84. >> that's right. i think you both get a sticker for that one. ronald reagan in 1984 and obviously, he was at the time 73. he was running against mondale who was 56. cleaned mondale's clock. age was not used against reagan. >>> parker is back. >> nothing but a number. >> nothing but a number. parker is back for the second one. >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend of mine. senator, you're no jack kennedy. >> jamaal. >> lloyd benson in the vice presidential debate and you remembered it was lloyd benson. good job. >> nerdland for a reason. >> what state, jamaal? >> he was from texas. >> does anybody remember what dan quayle said in response? >> he said that's uncalled for. >> that's exactly it. >> crawl under the podium. >> after the laughing subsided in the crowd. >> that was a pretty good one. >> i think that's my best. >> he's being polite. he's not hitting his bell until she is through. >> here's the next parker video. >> george bush taking credit for the berlin wall coming down is like t
>> ronald reagan. >> you got it. >> ronald reagan, 1980. >> '84. >> that's right. i think you both get a sticker for that one. ronald reagan in 1984 and obviously, he was at the time 73. he was running against mondale who was 56. cleaned mondale's clock. age was not used against reagan. >>> parker is back. >> nothing but a number. >> nothing but a number. parker is back for the second one. >> i knew jack kennedy. jack kennedy was a friend...
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Sep 29, 2012
09/12
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ronald reagan was good at the jokes. you also have to know how to deliver them. >> absolutely. >> you can have great jokes written, but if you say them at the wrong minute it will backfire. >> a couple seconds left. what's your favorite debate moment in history? >> i like 1980 when ronald reagan said, ther said, "there o again." there's a whole wikipedia site on that quote. it allowed ronald reagan to triumph. >> great to talk to you today. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. take care. >> lots to look forward to next week. all right, what would you do for the man or woman you love? up next, how this man made his girlfriend's dream come true. stay with us. [ owner ] i need to expand to meet the needs of my growing business. but how am i going to fund it? and i have to find a way to manage my cash flow better. [ female announcer ] our wells fargo bankers are here to listen, offer guidance and provide you with options tailored to your business. we've loaned more money to small businesses than any other bank for
ronald reagan was good at the jokes. you also have to know how to deliver them. >> absolutely. >> you can have great jokes written, but if you say them at the wrong minute it will backfire. >> a couple seconds left. what's your favorite debate moment in history? >> i like 1980 when ronald reagan said, ther said, "there o again." there's a whole wikipedia site on that quote. it allowed ronald reagan to triumph. >> great to talk to you today. thank you so...
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Oct 4, 2012
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what i do is the same way that tip o'neal and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to foster. >> so it's about principles, not actual hard plans. in a million years did you ever think that a victory could come out of this debate base odd vagueness? i ask that because knowing in we knew all of the weapons both could quite honestly use and weapons the moderator would have available to press both candidates. >> you know what really aamuses me about that line, though? another part of the debate romney attacked obama for doing too much to allow harry reid and nancy pelosi in the health care policy. sometimes romney says obama puts his plans out too much, and other times it's too much to negotiate with congress. romney's approach here has not been to not put out specifics on his policy. it's been to not put out the hard parts. i want it to cut the budget by $7 trillion or taxes by $5 trillion, but he doesn't tell you the details. am i surprised that led to a win for him? not really. i don't th
what i do is the same way that tip o'neal and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to foster. >> so it's about principles, not actual hard plans. in a million years did you ever think that a victory could come out of this debate base odd vagueness? i ask that because knowing in we knew all of the weapons both could quite honestly use and weapons the moderator would have available to press both...
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ronald reagan made a deal with tip o'neil. it was for tax increases and spending control. >> hurt republicans when they ran for office, didn't it? >> they got the tax increases. they didn't get spending cuts. he got the tax increases ch he didn't get the spending cuts. >> do you think it was a governing mistake. if he gets elected president, is he going to regret that? >> i think the crisis we face financially is so severe that all the discussion of finances last night, you can fergs. we don't have the money to expand the military. we don't have the money you have to overhaul sos to keep it sound. >> he wants to spend more money in the military. do you think that's a mistake? >> the money isn't there. >> david, this is where the obama campaign wants to go. it's saying, yes, we lost on style. but romney made himself -- i mean, senator, it's a complicated argument he's making on these issues. >> absolutely. and it's going to make sense after the the election. we're facing a fiscal cliff. all the consumers will come into play. an
ronald reagan made a deal with tip o'neil. it was for tax increases and spending control. >> hurt republicans when they ran for office, didn't it? >> they got the tax increases. they didn't get spending cuts. he got the tax increases ch he didn't get the spending cuts. >> do you think it was a governing mistake. if he gets elected president, is he going to regret that? >> i think the crisis we face financially is so severe that all the discussion of finances last night,...
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Oct 1, 2012
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everybody talks about ronald reagan -- ronald reagan did not shrink the size of government. government was mh bigger when reagan left office than when he started. there is this idea that is created out there that does not match the reality. when you get down to local communities where we do compromise, where we make the tough policy decisions, then yes, sometimes you can not do it. >> we are out of time. we're committed to sticking >> we are committed as the department to feinstein counterfeit and unapproved drug cases. together with the u.s. attorney's offices around the country, the criminal divisions, computer crimes and intellectual property section, my office is actively partnering with fda, oci, all the other branches you have heard today. dea, postal service. investigating the wide variety of unlawful trafficking that we see. as we heard this morning, from tim and as we have been hearing throughout the day, the availability of drugs has skyrocketed. anyone with a computer can order drugs on line using search engines, using b2b sites. they can do this for personal use
everybody talks about ronald reagan -- ronald reagan did not shrink the size of government. government was mh bigger when reagan left office than when he started. there is this idea that is created out there that does not match the reality. when you get down to local communities where we do compromise, where we make the tough policy decisions, then yes, sometimes you can not do it. >> we are out of time. we're committed to sticking >> we are committed as the department to feinstein...
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Oct 4, 2012
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what i do is the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago, when ronald reagan ran for office he laid out the principles he was going to foster. he said he was going to lower tax rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. you said the same thing. you're going to simplify the tax code, broaden the base. those are my principles i want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families and i want to work with congress to say what are the various ways we can wring down deductions. one way would be to have a single number. make up a number, $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have deduction up to that amount. and then that number disappears for high-income people. that's one way one could do it. one could follow bowles-simpson and take deduction by deduction. there are alternatives to pleas the objective i have which is tow bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code, and create incentives for growth. with regards to health care, you had remarkable details with regard to my reexisting conditions plan. you obviously studied up on my plan. in fact
what i do is the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago, when ronald reagan ran for office he laid out the principles he was going to foster. he said he was going to lower tax rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. you said the same thing. you're going to simplify the tax code, broaden the base. those are my principles i want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families and i want to work with congress to say what are the various ways we...
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mitt romney, and i'm not comparing it to 1980 and ronald reagan being an appealing alternative, but jimmy carter, not a bad alternative. i think that could eat into the president's support and more than just the undecided voter support. what do you think? >> not necessarily. because what voters too often and we see this and a lot of data. they complain and gripe, especially well as down in the polls. when it comes down to it on election day they usually hold their nose, suck it up and vote for their party leader. that is why we have undecided voters. usually if you're a member of your party by election day you aren't going to vote for the guy neil: i know you do this in far more exhaustive detail that idea, but i am old and remember 1980 and to remember that the undecided voters at the time, jumped either ronald reagan or jimmy carter. it turns out a lot more did. i'm not saying that there is some truth to what you're saying. those who are leery of that party or the candidate of that party would jump, could jump if they are disenchanted enough with their own who choice or intrigued enough
mitt romney, and i'm not comparing it to 1980 and ronald reagan being an appealing alternative, but jimmy carter, not a bad alternative. i think that could eat into the president's support and more than just the undecided voter support. what do you think? >> not necessarily. because what voters too often and we see this and a lot of data. they complain and gripe, especially well as down in the polls. when it comes down to it on election day they usually hold their nose, suck it up and...
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Oct 6, 2012
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when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past but look to the future. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better off today than you are four years ago in great moments. different time and place that we are in than we were back in 1980 even though there are many similarities. society is different today than it was back in the 1980s. and so we have to change and understand it from that view point. >> let me ask you going forward, what are your expectations as mitt romney prepares for his next big face off with the president? >> he can't have a down moment. i think what happened we see it in the polls. you see the polls change things are getting closer and mitt romney is in the lead. people saw them for the f
when you put machine up against ronald reagan. they will fail because it is ronald reagan. let mitt romney have his moment and applaud him and not try to tie him to the past but look to the future. >> why do people say you need that phrase and sentence in a debate that can be remembered for people going forward for the generation toz come. why do you have to have that pivotal moment. >> they are the game changer. whether the age issue with mondale there you go again . are you better...
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Sep 30, 2012
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the big issue, the big change began in 1980 with the election of ronald reagan because he brought with him to washington a very underrated figure in the recent history, some i don't think this is due as an important area and that is edwin meese because he was first an advisor and then as attorney general said look, they're has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court of their needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was the agenda? expand executive power and attend to a system for americans from a speech that execution, welcome religion into the public sphere and above all, reverse roe v wade in the last months again to the abortion. a big part of the revolution was the arrival in washington of a group of young and committed conservative lawyers who wanted it to work on behalf of the agenda. word the best and brightest in your group? john roberts and samuel alito. in 1985 in a memo plotting the litigation strategy of the solicitor general's office, he wrote what can be made of this opportunity to advance the goal of bringing about the eventual overruling of roe v
the big issue, the big change began in 1980 with the election of ronald reagan because he brought with him to washington a very underrated figure in the recent history, some i don't think this is due as an important area and that is edwin meese because he was first an advisor and then as attorney general said look, they're has been a liberal agenda at the supreme court of their needs to be a conservative agenda at the supreme court. what was the agenda? expand executive power and attend to a...
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Oct 2, 2012
10/12
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when ronald reagan said, there you go again, it was completely natural to him. as you know, chris, carter was right, he had opposed medicare at the start, but when reagan said, there you go again, it actually sort of discounted everything else that carter had said in that debate. so they've got to be organic, they've got to be natural, they've got to be real. i think everybody at least in the political class who has seen this report is going to be watching the debate to see if we can sort of tick off, oh, that was the prepared zinger. did he bring it off? >> oh, yeah. >> the other thing is he's not very good at this. i mean, you know, i know they don't want him to be spontaneous because he'll say the wrong thing, but delivering a prepared funny line seems to me to be one of the hardest tasks, probably even harder than telling us what's in his tax plan. >> as a journalist, joan, i want your view. suppose you're watching the debate, as we all will be, everybody is going to be watching wednesday night, and you see what is obviously a prefab zinger that doesn't even
when ronald reagan said, there you go again, it was completely natural to him. as you know, chris, carter was right, he had opposed medicare at the start, but when reagan said, there you go again, it actually sort of discounted everything else that carter had said in that debate. so they've got to be organic, they've got to be natural, they've got to be real. i think everybody at least in the political class who has seen this report is going to be watching the debate to see if we can sort of...
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Sep 29, 2012
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and start talk about ronald reagan. >> ronald reagan at this point in his president, 8% growth -- >> we're not debating ronald reagan -- >> he hasn't fixed it and now we see economic growth -- we're heading towards a recession. >> jennifer: we're heading towards a recession. consumer confidence is at a seven-month high, the s&p 500 is up nearly 15% year to date. but this is what fox news does when the facts don't confirm with their version of reality, they call the data skewed. >> it's very strange that big unemployment number seems to be skewed. the department may be becoming a bit partisan. i state on air, and the left goes absolutely bonkers and call me a conspiracy theorist. >> jennifer: maybe that's because you are. if fox news hosts don't like reality, they just make up their own version of events. >> the romney campaign has sent a lot of time asking a question from 1980. are you better off than four years ago, when any damn fool knows that in 2008 this country was in crisis. why would you pick that year as your fourth-year comparison. >> jennifer: i love it. really? lou dobbs
and start talk about ronald reagan. >> ronald reagan at this point in his president, 8% growth -- >> we're not debating ronald reagan -- >> he hasn't fixed it and now we see economic growth -- we're heading towards a recession. >> jennifer: we're heading towards a recession. consumer confidence is at a seven-month high, the s&p 500 is up nearly 15% year to date. but this is what fox news does when the facts don't confirm with their version of reality, they call the...
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Oct 4, 2012
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when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles he was going to foster. he said he was going to lower tax rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. have you said the same thing, simplify the tax code, broaden the base. i want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families. i will work with congress to say, what are the ways to bring down deductions? one way would be to have a single number -- make up a number, 25,000 -- 50,000, anybody can have deductions up to that amount. and that number disappears for high-income people. one could follow bowl etion-simpson and make deductions that way. there are alternatives to the objective i have, which is to bring down rate, broaden the base, simplify the code and create incentives for growth. with regard to health care, you have remarkable details with regard to my pre-existing plan. you studied up on my plan. i do have a plan for pre-existing conditions. what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nation -- state by state. i said that at that time. the federal government taking over health care
when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles he was going to foster. he said he was going to lower tax rates. he said he was going to broaden the base. have you said the same thing, simplify the tax code, broaden the base. i want to bring down the tax burden on middle-income families. i will work with congress to say, what are the ways to bring down deductions? one way would be to have a single number -- make up a number, 25,000 -- 50,000, anybody can have deductions up to that...
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what i do, the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to follow. he said he was going to lower taxes and broaden the base. you've said the same thing, those are my principles, i want to bring down the tax burden middle income families. i want to work together with congress. one way for instance would be to have a single number, make up a number. $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have deductions up to that amount. and then the number disappears for high-income people. one could follow bowles-simpson as a model. there are alternatives to accomplish the objective i have, which is to bring down rates, broaden the base, simplify the code and create incentives for growth. and with regards to health care you had remarkable detail with regards to my preexisting conditions plan. you've obviously studied up on my plan. in fact i do have a plan that deals with people with preexisting conditions. that's part of my plan. and what we did in massachusetts is a model for the nat
what i do, the same way that tip o'neil and ronald reagan worked together some years ago. when ronald reagan ran for office, he laid out the principles that he was going to follow. he said he was going to lower taxes and broaden the base. you've said the same thing, those are my principles, i want to bring down the tax burden middle income families. i want to work together with congress. one way for instance would be to have a single number, make up a number. $25,000, $50,000. anybody can have...
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i compare the the campaign i ran with ronald reagan had an off night, he was ten points ahead and basically went on to win by 18. he had a very strong second debate. lou: every candidate should try to emulate? >> my sense is this president came under attack on both his performance, his own performance , his policies, and the good thing is once again romney kept coming back. this is what you do to create jobs. it was almost editorial. lou: editorial. he took to school. and you really see this -- >> you mentioned tonight. i want to repeal the franc. he says medicare should be a voucher. the you think these are popular policies? president obama said if you have such great plans for what you're going to do to replace dodd-frank. >> don't keep a secret. he did not produce. lou: the only thing i actually heard the president's taken i did not hear him say what you just said, by the way. i heard and basically say that if you have a secret it because you don't want it to be heard because it's too good. >> i have heard debate contrivances like that tie just as you have over the course of our career.
i compare the the campaign i ran with ronald reagan had an off night, he was ten points ahead and basically went on to win by 18. he had a very strong second debate. lou: every candidate should try to emulate? >> my sense is this president came under attack on both his performance, his own performance , his policies, and the good thing is once again romney kept coming back. this is what you do to create jobs. it was almost editorial. lou: editorial. he took to school. and you really see...
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successful pattern to follow, ronald reagan's. on the other hand, you had the debt limit talks in 2011 where president obama in the middle of talks never, until this day, has gotten specific. we don't know if he offered to raise the medicare retirement age. we don't know how much he said he would cut medicare and enact entitlement reform. so he did the opposite. he went into a serious negotiation not as a candidate but as the president and never got specific. it's one of the reasons we never got a big debt limit deal. so i think mitt romney actually is following the reagan pattern. the question is who when it comes to real negotiation with congress will follow through and get it done. i think mitt romney would be stronger at that. the president, if he could have done it, would have done it. >> secretary reish -- >> let me -- with due respect, with due respect to mr. fleischer, the fact is when ronald reagan was running we didn't have the kind of budget deficit we have right now. it's very -- >> that's not the point. >> you cannot
successful pattern to follow, ronald reagan's. on the other hand, you had the debt limit talks in 2011 where president obama in the middle of talks never, until this day, has gotten specific. we don't know if he offered to raise the medicare retirement age. we don't know how much he said he would cut medicare and enact entitlement reform. so he did the opposite. he went into a serious negotiation not as a candidate but as the president and never got specific. it's one of the reasons we never...
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. >> ronald reagan himself said. >> it doesn't work that way. neil: thank you, sir. well, it sounds like simpson-bowles and it smells like simpson-bowles. it even has the same savings, almost exact savings as simpson-bowles. why more than a year later our senators coming up with a pistol clip avoiding measure that is pretty much simpson-bowles? rachel quit the corporate grind to start her own interior design business. she's got a growing list of clients she keeps in touch with using e-mail marketing from constantcontact.com. constantcontact is easy and affordable. it lets her send out updates and photos that showcase her expertise and inspire her customers for only $15 a month. [ dog barking ] her dream -- to be the area's hottest interior design office. [ children laughing ] right now, she just dreams of an office. get a free trial at constantcontact.com. i took my son fishing every year. we had a great spot, not easy to find, but worth it. but with copd making it hard to breathe, i thought those days might be over. so my doctor prescribed symbicort. it helps signif
. >> ronald reagan himself said. >> it doesn't work that way. neil: thank you, sir. well, it sounds like simpson-bowles and it smells like simpson-bowles. it even has the same savings, almost exact savings as simpson-bowles. why more than a year later our senators coming up with a pistol clip avoiding measure that is pretty much simpson-bowles? rachel quit the corporate grind to start her own interior design business. she's got a growing list of clients she keeps in touch with using...